question for 12 valve into f-350

Cummins Conversion & Builds

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question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby jethro » Sun May 03, 2015 5:40 pm

Q for yall that have put 12 valve into a ford

I am ready to install my engine into my 2004 f-350. (zf-6 manual)

Here is my question:
when I put the engine into the bay and start moving it backward and down- at some point the sump area on the oil pan will contact the cross member - and the sump will have to get past the cross member before the engine can sit all the way down.
So before it gets all the way back there will be some interference between the sump and cross member.

But before the engine can go fully to the rear- the trans input shaft has to line up with the clutch central hole.
My transmission is still in that rear cradle/mount (loosely) supporting its rear. If I jack up the front of the bell housing-
(tipping the whole trans up at the front) will I be able to get the input shaft into the clutch without the oil pan sump blocking
that move by pushing the engine up at too steep an angle ?

I guess the other possibility is to take the transmission completely loose and roll it down and back completely out of the way of the engine- so the engine can go in and on its mounts without the bell housing in the way- then try to bring the transmission
back up and forward to engage the clutch (and bolt the bell to the adaptor plate.)

I think I will have a much easier time if some kind soul can tell me if the first way is impossible before I have to find out the hard way !!!!!!!!!! (or if you have done it that way and it was OK )

It appears that there will be a good amount of clearance up and down between the #6 valve cover and the firewall overhang.
(more than I thought there would be .....)

Thanks ahead of time for any wisdom of experience !

Tim
jethro
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby dr_funk » Thu May 07, 2015 8:26 pm

I would pull the transmission all the way out of the way. Get the motor set down on the mounts before you try to mate them. You don't want to risk getting things bound up with the input shaft only partially inserted.
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an exercise in how not to -----

Postby jethro » Sat May 09, 2015 7:46 pm

yes-
First I tried dropping the rear of the trans to increase the angle. that looked like it would work- got the engine in the hole and roughly lined up- but the engine leveler prevented it from going all the way.
next I took the leveler off- just used a short heavy chain without much slack so it would hug the valve covers - that seemed to clear the top of the cowl better. Then I decided to pull the trans back and down so it cleared the clutch.

That allowed me to gradually work the engine in a little at a time.
Had the trans suspended on 3 or 4 chains draped across the frame like a hammock with a transmission jack under the
front/center area and a 20 ton bottle jack on the transfer case. Took about 2 hours to gently work the trans up and into perfect alignment. got the smooth part of the input shaft into the hole- got the thing in all but for about an inch. Would not go
any farther. Shook it while turning trans- wiggled- turned the engine- no luck. verified the trans was "in gear". That left only 1 problem it could be. the friction disk must have gotten pushed out of perfect alignment on the first attempt.
Pulled the trans way back and tried the alignment tool into the clutch- sure enough it would not go now.
I guess I must have hooked the clutch on the tip of the input shaft on the first attempt without knowing it. I still had the engine on the hoist at that point- so it could have happened easily.
Got the engine in anyway. Noticed that without the tramsmission attached to it it wanted to roll backwards on the mounts-
so i had to put a large ratchet strap under the back of the oil pan to prevent that when i took the lift off.
I think it will go on pretty easy once I re-allign the clutch plate again and prep it for another try. i will cake care to not let the input shaft touch much untill i think it is pretty well perfectly centered 9as best that i can tell.
i dont understand why they dont put an inspection cover on the bell housing so you can see whats going on when you are trying to bring the shaft into the clutch.

Tim
jethro
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby jethro » Tue May 12, 2015 10:57 pm

Pulled the friction disk out- reset it with the alignment tool- would slide out with pinkie pressure-
Slowly snuck up on it with trans- got input shaft started- - added forward pressure with ratchet strap- wiggled trans shaft just a little-
felt a little "interlock" sensation- more pressure forward...... shook trans with both feet- it hopped forward about 1/2 inch-
more wiggle and pressure- gradually going in. went in east really.
Noticed that the splines on input shaft are hard as chicken lips. Clutch splines are much softer. After the first try the input shaft slightly
burred up the leading edge of the clutch pressure plate splines. while I had clutch apart I took a flat jewelers file and removed the burrs
and made a slight bevel at the leading edge. that helped A LOT !
All fairly easy except that the transmission is just a huge whale to move around !

Tim
jethro
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby Gots_a_sol » Wed May 13, 2015 5:31 pm

You should post some pics of your swap. I'm getting ready to swap my Excursion in the next few weeks.
-Joe

00 Excursion - 12v/nv4500, he351cw, 5x12s, 366 spring, THD piston pump, 4" intake/exhaust
Gots_a_sol
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby jethro » Fri May 15, 2015 11:58 pm

I would say too much weight to deal with trying to juggle both engine and transmission at the same time.
Definitely recommend just push the trans back about 1 foot- just get the engine in and bolted in loosely.
get the alignment tool adjusted so you can slide it out with your little finger (NO drag !)
Then take you good old sweet time bringing the tranny forward. (this part took about 2 hours- as the zf-6 is about
7 feet long and feels like 400 lbs and somewhat unbalances left-right because of the transfer case hanging out --- )
Get your head back behind the output shaft and sight through the bolt holes for x and y position and rotation.
get it as close as possible BEFORE the input shaft makes contact. Sight around from the side and gauge the gap between the flanges - make it even - which makes the input shaft co-linear with the clutch plate splines and flywheel bearing.
(I filed a TINY bevel at the mouth of the splines of the friction disk- on all 4 surfaces of the spline - all the way round.
(input shaft hard- friction disk splines soft)
The last step before it disappeared- I used the alignment tool to place a spline at 6 O-Clock and then a land on the input shaft also at 6 O-Clock. (Ill take every advantage I can get)
Came forward -very slowly- checking from behind and sides every 1/4 inch until contact.
Then took2 big ratchet straps and arranged them to apply pull together force. cranked them just a little- maybe 1 or 2 clicks-
then wiggled the transmission with my feet- kind of a shiver like when you are cold.... felt the smooth end of the shaft start in-
a couple more clicks of the straps to add just a little pressure- another shiver-shake - nothing. went back and VRRRY gently and slightly rotated the output shaft about 5 degrees left and right (remember to leave the tranny IN GEAR so you can do this)
I wiggled it 3 or 4 times about 5 degrees and I felt a little "lock-up" click- then I knew I was in the splines ! A couple more clicks of the ratchet straps and another shake with my feet and I could see it ease forward about 1/2 inch. repeated the tightening/shaking about 4 more times - and I was then left with about 1/8 to zero gap. I was bale to get ALL the bolts started
by hand and screw all of them about 90 % of the way without even a ratchet!!!!!! Holy crap was I a happy man !
I did cheat a little and chase the threaded holes in the plate and then apply plenty of copper anti-seize to the bolts and the holes beforehand.
I don't think I could have EVER done it like the hot rod guys do on TV where they tilt the engine down and the tranny up
and do it all in one move. I call BS on that idea- at least for pieces as big as these- and doing it alone single-handed.....

I will post pictures if I can remember how...... but all I have is one of it hanging on the hoist and one of it in----- pretty boreing really.........

In retrospect it would have helped a lot to take the front wheels off. I could have seen what I was doing better-
I didn't because I had to roll the truck out at the end of each work session to shut the garage up.

Tim
jethro
fuel screw!!!!
 
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby Gots_a_sol » Sat May 16, 2015 8:20 am

Yea the current trucks have the engine way too far under the windshield cowl to get the engine/trans in in one piece. Plus the super deep oil pans of the diesel doesn't help.

I did manage to pull my 12v/nv4500 out of my dodge in one piece, but it had A LOT of angle on it to accomplish that.


What are you doing for accessories? (a/c, alternator, etc...)
-Joe

00 Excursion - 12v/nv4500, he351cw, 5x12s, 366 spring, THD piston pump, 4" intake/exhaust
Gots_a_sol
fuel screw!!!!
 
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby jethro » Sat May 16, 2015 7:08 pm

My engine had all the accessories- so I am going to try to use them. Don't know yet if the air conditioner compressor is good-
probably wont know until I try it !
Dodge alternator should need only a dodge regulator box.
Not sure what I need yet for a tach transmitter-
My chassis did NOT have the ford brain box with it- will I need these to make the dash gauges work ?
Tonight I got the seats out so I can plan out moving the shifter holes backwards a little bit. Ford-cummins web page
claims that this isn't needed- but as the stem is all most touching the rear edge of the hole- I don't see any choice-

Tim
jethro
fuel screw!!!!
 
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby Gots_a_sol » Sat May 16, 2015 7:49 pm

jethro wrote:
My chassis did NOT have the ford brain box with it- will I need these to make the dash gauges work ?

Tim

From what I've read all the senders feed the pcm then the pcm sends that info to the gauge cluster. I haven't studied any wiring diagrams yet to see if that is factual though.
-Joe

00 Excursion - 12v/nv4500, he351cw, 5x12s, 366 spring, THD piston pump, 4" intake/exhaust
Gots_a_sol
fuel screw!!!!
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:45 pm
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Re: question for 12 valve into f-350

Postby jethro » Sat May 16, 2015 9:55 pm

That's kind of what I suspect too- Might have to look for used one (?)
Read somewhere of someone taking out all the factory gauges and replacing them with a sheet of aluminum and pure mechanical gauges. That may have been an older diesel tractor-
That would still leave electric windows and the electric door locks-
don't REALLY want to have to screw with a computer-

tim
jethro
fuel screw!!!!
 
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:32 am
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