VGT turbo controller ideas?????

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VGT turbo controller ideas?????

Postby Fnschlaud4620 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:30 pm

Ok, I am the new owner of a Holset HY55V.

I am planning on using this turbo as a secondary for a Holset HC4 or equivelent size turbo.

The HY55V is variable geometry and I need to design a control system for it opperation.

I am debating between electronic control or mechanical,

for electrical control I can make a stand alone controller, no problem. It is just alot of added cost I would like to avoid.

I am unsure if I can obtain the results I want with a Mechanical acuatator

I will have vacuum, boost, Exhaust backpressure, spring pressure, check valves, and such to design a system

I will need a load sensitive input. Boost should be Load sensitive Correct?

The chrysler VNT 25 turbo used a mechanical system and it worked well.
however, Under cruse conditions there was vaccume and it opened the housing all of the way up and allowed it to flow well. I am afraid I may not be able to achieve that aspect due to crusing at 7-8 lbs of boost.

I am afraid That light load will be not be enough to open the housing up and instead of crusing at 7-8 lbs of boost I may be at 12-14 or something?

I am not problem solving this yet.

I am just wanting any and all opinions, ideas on how to make a cheep mechanial operating system. that will perform well

Thanks Guys
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Postby Begle1 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:39 pm

How is the geometry on the turbo controlled?

Do you feed it an electrical signal to change the geometry? Give it pressure? Pull on a cable?
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Postby Fnschlaud4620 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:58 pm

The turbo has mechanical linkage that can be either mechanically or electrically controlled.

I think that OEM uses a duty cycle solenoid to control it position but I am not sure yet.

here is the basic idea, but mine is a little different:
http://www.holset.co.uk/files/2_5_1_5-VGT.php
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Postby Begle1 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:13 pm

First thing that comes to my mind is my water injection controller.

It can be referenced to EGT, RPM and boost pressure and be programmed to output on/offs or a variable voltage.

So it could gradually increase voltage as boost pressure increases, and increase even faster if boost is increasing and you have high EGT's.

How is the mechanical linkage on the turbo electronically controlled? Does it have a servo built in?

If you use a regular-type servo I think you'd need a PWM.
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Postby cummins king » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:07 pm

dont you think a mechanical control would make the turbo go out of wack, doesnt it need to be smoth by air or eletric control, dont know much about the stuff but its my 2 cent worth
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Postby Fnschlaud4620 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:24 pm

The range of motion is probably only an 1nch or so. I am thinking about using a waste gate acuatator and using boost against spring pressure to open it.

Like I said before I am worried about having the housing too small for crusing down the road.

You are right if it doesnt work smooth, or it closes too fast the turbo could over speed and snap the shaft. I wonder if I would need a type of delayed effect???

Like I said I am just idea hunting.

Supposely there is a guy in AL named Joey Pruitt, he is suppose to be a diesel guru and has a controller for the 12v cummins. I cant find any contact info on him. Anyone know who he is?
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Postby flashgordon » Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:13 pm

Definitely like the idea!! :thumright:

Looks like your going to be doing a lot of research :wrench:

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Postby Begle1 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:18 pm

If you set it up like a wastegate, it'd be a permanent exhaust brake. The "housing" would be the smallest when you have no boost, then it would gradually open up as you get more boost. But when you let off on the gas your boost would drop and it would slam shut and act like an exhaust brake.

How could one prevent that... :?
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Postby KTA » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:32 pm

I think you will find you will need to go the electronic controller route using the shaft RPM sensor on the turbo. Gale Banks blew up about 7 of those chargers on the Sidewinder trying to mechanically control one before they built a standalone controller for it.
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Postby Philip » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:09 pm

Gale Banks blew up about 7 of those chargers on the Sidewinder trying to mechanically control one before they built a standalone controller for it.


I asked a cummins rep why they didn't make a stand alone controller at Schieds two years ago. His reply there wouldn't be enough demand. :mad:

We were standing beside a display engine with one on it.
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Postby cummins king » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:14 pm

ya i think its the not smothness of the mechanical function that wrecks them

(did that make any sence :oops: :lol: )
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Postby swank » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:48 am

i've started a couple threads on this subject. (i've got four different vgt turbos sitting in my garage). i've come to the conclusion that the system used on a cummins motor needs to be replicated. good luck getting any info. i found a pdf on holsets site that went through the basic stuff. got some old pm's on tdr (that i can't access anymore, and are probably deleted by now) that i squeezed the max shaft speed out of a guy who supposedly worked for holset.

the actuator (on the pneumatic ones) is set up to be wide open at rest. that means that you need air pressure to get it off the line. it is also like that so when something malfunctions when you're cruising down the road at 75, it doesn't slam shut and grenade.

so, what you need to make is a controller that can regulate air(or a heat shielded servo motor, if you've got one that already has that on there) based on these variables:

shaft rpm
engine rpm
ambient air temp
charge air temp
manifold pressure
barometric pressure
exhaust temp
exhaust pressure

i think there is another thing or two as well. can't remember right now though.

so once you get the thing built, you can hire a couple monkeys like banks did(really smart ones though) and have them go through and plot charts based on the that stuff. then have them write the program for the controller.

i'm not trying to get you down on this stuff, but i've spent a LOT of time thinking about these things while staring at the turbos i spent a pretty penny on. not wanting to blow them up, i decided that it was worth doing right. i'm in an engineering program now, and have every intention of get some of the kids at school to help me with the stuff. compruter types and what not. anyway, if you come up with anything, i'd love to hear about it. there was a guy on tdr a long time ago who i was never able to get ahold of who supposedly got one going (hx40 equivalent). took him two or three tries, but i guess he ran one for a while. never got any details on his set up though. if you want, do a search on dtr under my name and, i think, "look what brown did for me". two or three years ago by now.

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Postby KTA » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:33 am

If you are really interested some of the mercedes super-turbos in finland have some guy that for about $2000 sells a standalone controller for the Holset VGT's. Or at least I think I have understood that to be the case. My finnish translation isn't always the best. :lol:
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Postby cummins king » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:22 am

swank wrote:
so, what you need to make is a controller that can regulate air(or a heat shielded servo motor, if you've got one that already has that on there) based on these variables:

shaft rpm
engine rpm
ambient air temp
charge air temp
manifold pressure
barometric pressure
exhaust temp
exhaust pressure

i think there is another thing or two as well. can't remember right now though.



so bacily your saying its rocket sience :lol:
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Postby Begle1 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:54 am

If the shaft speed is the only limiting factor... Isn't the shaft speed entirely dependent on exhaust housing size?

It wouldn't be too hard to program an equation that supplies the lowest-possible-exhaust-housing-size while maintaining the max-shaft-speed. That will give you the maximum boost at all levels and maximum spool up, but it wouldn't be EGT referenced so you might see high EGT's.

What we want to do is gradually open up the exhaust housing however much is required to maintain the shaft speed, correct? And, if required, program it to open even faster if you are seeing high EGT's.

The hard part in that seems to be getting a shaft speed signal off of the turbocharger. Do you know what kind of signal the turbo's speed sensor outputs? I wonder if my water injection kit could read it as a tach signal...
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